one and I want to welcome everybody to this a very special episode my name is Paul Adams and we’re going to go off the beaten track a little bit this is a very special couple that you see here in front of me this is Kathy and Lee Baker these are people that were staunch Mormons at one time Lee Baker was a bishop he served very faithfully in the church and he was also an executive and ENSA so I want to welcome you both I pray the Lord spirit might be with us as we discussed these very important topics about the church about your mission in life how the Lord is directing you and maybe we can talk about the gospel topic essays a little bit and the the class action that we have spearheaded online there may be other class actions I’m not sure but Kathy and Lee why don’t you give us a little bit of a backdrop as to your beginnings for the church and your experience in the church and I should also mention that I did see your interview the of you explaining some of the heart-wrenching experiences you had with your stake president when when Kathy was trying to elicit some information from him and she was in tears trying to get answers and it really it really touched me when I when I heard about that so you got help you go ahead you guys okay well we appreciate your time Paul we appreciate what you’ve been doing and and just to get the word out there and and we may be special to you but we are just absolutely average and normal people in fact my family said I was special and I later figured out what that meant because I was riding the short bus to school but but generally speaking we’re just average people that really love the church love the Lord I grew up Catholic started in the military in in 1976 we got married in 77 we got married in 77 the same year it’s been 42 years so I can slip a little bit got it so 32 years in the church 36 years with the government and all that time as you said with NSA I brought him into the church so I guess my parents joined the church when I was four years old and I brought Lee into the church when I was dating him what was a couple flirt to convert you were returned missionary when he was getting more serious about me I broke up with them in seven sorry but I have to be married in the Mormon temple I you know I I will only marry you if you’re Mormon so he started taking the missionary discussions and half years later he joined the Mormon Church yeah and at that time I went through what I thought was a fair amount of research and questions but for the generation today they they won’t understand the availability of information back in the 70s there isn’t any there wasn’t any we didn’t go to the church library it was not available so it is frustrating that the church today presents some of their issues as if this information has always been out there and it has always been in the basement of the church history library you know in Salt Lake City but to be so arrogant to think that the active members of the church had access yeah diaries of the women or even the Joseph Smith papers or the differences the Book of Mormon it’s a total lie it’s a complete deception so how old were you when you first joined I was 19 years old I do I joined when I was 17 okay there you go and you grew up Catholic Rite Catholic correct and it took me about three weeks to four weeks to take the discussions and then I fasted and prayed about it and I had I had a spiritual experience I can’t lie you know I did have this you know infusion of the spirit from head to toe I don’t know what it was it could have been one of those fall spirits one of those manifestations but I was convinced that I had to be baptized and I joined the church and a year and a half later I went on my mission Wow but you know it took me only three weeks to come out of the church my search started April 1st of this year and I knew I had cognitive dissonance as soon as I heard about The Book of Abraham something terribly wrong was going on inside me and then I heard Jeffrey hall and talk about you know he doesn’t care what’s on those but fire I visitor translated into Scripture yeah you know they could be dancing instructions I knew I was being calmed and that I went full force into my research by April 13th I signed my resignation letter sent at UPS returned receipts by April 24 if I had my confirmation later that I was out of the church I have to ask you are you are you were you married at the time okay okay I had a soft landing I have been single since 2005 okay and what made it easier for me was that in 2015 I was attending the Santa Monica First Ward here and one of the Russian brothers was given the task of saying the prayer for the bridge and he would say it flawlessly right up until the very end you know where it says that his spirit may be with them right right I don’t say that his spirit may be with and he would say that his spirit made which them ha ha ha accurate that is so you as a bishop what would you have done tell me well as that’s a good question because the first time that I blessed the sacrament in Texas I didn’t know that the young men were reading it off of cards and I thought that was cheating so I was trying to memorize it so when I first got up there I’m of course I’m an adult and I’m yeah I’m just a priest and and I they hand me a card and it kind of flummoxed me a little bit so I’m trying to remember and read at the same time and I must have done it it was a lot remember being embarrassed poor guy yeah I’m not 11 i mighta let it go if I was a bishop and and the guy was crying let me tell you what happened the bishop didn’t say a word and then the following week it happened all over again oh no that’s different yeah and it happened the week after that and the week after that so I communicated one of the counselors I said hey you know we’ve got an issue here we’d better fix this this is not good you know what if investigators come in here what are the guys think there were some kind of a coven in yeah he would he said well you know he’s Russian and all this I said there’s no excuse no excuse you have to take the time make sure he takes an hour a day to practice the pronunciation and don’t let him ever come back on that sacromonte table until he gets at night yeah well he said he would fix it he never did as the problem just occurred so I stopped luring the spirit told me stop going by the way I I have been an ardent disciple of the Book of Mormon ever since Ezra Taft Benson instructed us to read a book of moment back in 1987 I don’t know if you remember I do a chapter a day every day I was in my 53rd read of the Book of Mormon Wow yeah so I think I know the Book of Mormon yeah did anything stand out to you even back then as far as the racist statements or the difference between grace I mean everything else is pretty much stolen from the Bible or other books and really know Mormonism but I I’m amazed that the racist statements never really hit me between the eyes when I was reading them yeah me too it never hit me between the eyes I took it as just a matter of course that things happen for a reason and I was one of those guys you know that did not want to include any archaeological evidence of the Book of Mormon in my construct because I wanted to go strictly by faith if somebody said to me you know what we found something in Central America that verifies you know the Nephites I didn’t want to hear about that I was strictly my faith go by faith yeah and this is part of the indoctrination you know when you look at Doctrine and Covenants dnc 9 which tells you to study it out in your mind right before yeah what’s happening here with with LDS members is just the converse they take everything by faith and regurgitate what their leaders have told them over the years and I’ve had the opportunity to challenge several professional LDS leaders in airports or in Salt Lake to ask them whether or not they apply that same type of logic to their secular world to their business world and I remember a conversation and the Salt Lake Airport mission president had several missionaries around him and I asked him what he retired from and he said he used to be a realtor and by this time we had a quite a crowd talking and I asked him I said that do you apply that logic in that thought process and that faith to selling homes you feel really good about a home you don’t need that you don’t need to check on the title you don’t need to check on whether or not these people could afford it whether they got a loan if you feel really really good about it he said no I I had to check on all that I said do you think it’s a little strange that you would go for your family and make money and do your yesterday but release your eternal salvation to a feeling you got the point he got the point yeah I’ve seen a few of your encounters with state presidents you are face to face belly to belly and you’re going at it with them I think you also recount one incident where they actually haunted you they took you and Hank after you or something like that and he thought about that yeah that was in in Indiana Cathy and I had been asked by several Christian churches in Indiana to come witness to the Christians and also the Mormons at the Mormon temple that they were just building the truth in Carmel Indiana north of Indianapolis and it was a completely legally banned all the permits were filed all the documentation was done the coordination with the local police was completed by these different churches even volunteers from these different churches came to represent the wife of Joseph Smith and all that but the man that was there representing the church the highest authority during the opening ceremony was Paul Sinclair and he had just been made a general authority he was in the form of 70s and I didn’t know that not not that it mattered but I met him once in the temple and then once outside the temple and introduced myself to him and because he also had just been made a partner in his law firm ice Miller he took exception to my challenges to him personally because I wanted to do an interview just like this yes I had done an interview with the local radio TV anyway long story short he said he would then he said he wouldn’t and I got a little boisterous not Kathy wasn’t happy about it but because because I called him out on challenges to simply explain or defend Mormonism what a perfect opportunity when the entire community came out he took that as a personal affront and he used I believe is legal training his position with the courts and three felonies against me I was arrested and thrown into jail and the judge even said he failed to read the charging documents based on the reputation of the attorney that had filed them unbelievable pretty amazing I spent a week in jail and Wow and $32,000 and you probably know about it but if you if you don’t I wrote a book about that event and yeah it’s available to anybody who would like to know that story I’m glad you’re you’re doing that yeah that’s great title jail for teaching the gospel of Jesus Christ in America excellent actually when I when I think of the Baker’s I think of a unit you know an inseperable unit you know like two pillars two Titans I consider myself a little in flashlight and I think of you as one of those you know three-foot diameter searchlights that are open tonight you know looking up at the sky we paid the price for that and we’ve lost most of our family so what you see here is actually the remnant of Baker family I’m sorting on it’s not a laughing matter so four children ten grandchildren and in my view it centers around the lie of Mormonism and it really the depth of a Mormon family and some day will tell that story you know the Savior said anyone who loves son or daughter or mother or father more than me is not worthy of me right we have to take a stand at some point and say this is where I draw the line I’m on this side of the line take up your cross and follow me and to do exactly yeah I’m the same way my children I’ve got six not that they have been close to me since they have been more or less poisoned by their their mother over the years but they have no contact with me and that’s okay you know that’s fine we’ll figure it out in the next life it’s all good I feel I feel confident that I’m on the right path I I I feel this deep change a transformation in me I don’t know if you felt it too upon leaving the church I feel a greater love for a deeper love and more just deeper it in fact you asked earlier about you mentioned earlier about how you felt the spirit when you join the church and I’ve been at several times and more importantly I’ve been asked by my children did you not feel the spirit while you were a bishop or in the church or on a high council and absolutely yes I’ve never denied that and I believe that the Heavenly Father does not deny his spirit based on what t-shirt you’re wearing right that’s why Muslims come to the Lord that’s why I comes to the Lord the problem is is that when that witness or that support comes from a loving Heavenly Father and you happen to be Mormon then the Mormon Miss reads that as a confirmation or a justification that you’re in the right church as if other churches do not have that access to the Lord and that’s absolutely not pretty well I think you know the way I see it I think that the enemy Lucifer has basically hijacked but the Lord’s principles if you will and he uses them to his advantage you know it’s a bit like a sugar coated cyanide pill right he will give you 99% truth and go with the flow as long as he gets his 1% in and tell me about your feelings regarding our free agency and how may be our free agency has been in pinched and abrogated because you know when you come into the church and you’re taught the discussions by the missionary you’re not given the whole picture in advance you’re not old what your covenants are going to be when you enter the temple in fact you as a bishop you know that when you’re signing a temple recommend you’re not giving the exact covenants the terms of the contract that the person is going to be entering into in the temple all right that’s a good way to put it and that’s part of the driving factor in in a week and a half we go to Africa for a week because we really feel that the third world countries specifically have not only been denied the information that obviously developed countries like America and Canada and France and Germany and Britain right have not had but in the developing countries it’s even worse we have we have met through the radio program that we that we have out there several Mormons do not even have the book of farming and I just find that incredible we actually ship both the Mormons from California to Liberia and then for them over the radio the racist statements but you’re absolutely right there is no agency and it’s certainly not a free agency not a free agency there have full story you know you don’t know what you don’t know and you can’t make a rational decision on it we’ve had hundreds of discussions with Mormons and Mormon missionaries exactly on that point where they say well I’ve never heard that or I don’t know that or I never read that and I ask them well then how can you have an opinion about it I’ve never known that it is church history in church doctrine that Joseph Smith took the wives of other men how could you be expected to evaluate that we’re coming to that in a second we’re coming to the gospel it’s incredible if I would have known that Joseph Smith used a rock in a hat to translate the Book of Mormon I want to slow down a little bit and I certainly would not have brought my children into this now you know what really would what really hurts will have Catherine say with the free agency part you know I really people asked me after I left the church Christians they said did you ever know that you were saved and when I look back at that I guess that free agency part was more of a fear on my part where I was I was doing things out of guilt that I you know I had I would have to do this I had to do that and a lot of things I wanted to I wanted to keep the word of wisdom I wanted to pay my tithing but I was doing it not ever know if I had done enough work to make it for the celestial kingdom I was very confident that I’d make it to the Middle Kingdom the trust you know but I won positive I make it to the celestial kingdom but now I just know that free agency I have is a Christian a born-again Christian just my roommate personal relationship with Jesus Christ and I love that feeling that I feel I know that if I died today that I would go to heaven because I have accepted them I have professed that I believe in Jesus Christ they do because they believe in him it doesn’t mean I’m going to go out and practice all this free agency and do crazy wild thing no I’m going to follow the standard that Christ I’m a new creation then happen yeah I think all of us have experienced sin at one point or another and we know how that feels it’s a bit like touching the hot stove so we don’t want to go there and you know I think that’s part of the lifetime experience that we’re going through here to be able to discern right and repent and you know do all the right things that we have to do to get through this journey but going back to the free agency the the thing that brethren stress a lot is you know pay pray and obey and follow the Brethren follow the Brethren father but you know never question them don’t ever criticize that’s the last thing you can do is criticize the Brethren right because they are be anointed the Lord’s anointed and you could be under a curse if you if you do that yeah Dallin a chokes I just remember we watched a PBS special years ago like back in two thousand seven or eight and he was quoted on there saying that you should never question what the leaders say he did I have a criticize your leaders even if that criticism is yes even if they lit criticism is true and also he said to to strengthen your testimony what you have to do is just keep burying your tongue like what how does what does that jive with doctrine covenant section nine I wonder complex activity it really is you know so having said that the other aspect about free agency is that when you get into the temple itself for the first time remember you’re there as a newbie you look around and wonder what the heck am I doing here and they tell you if anybody does not want to enter into these covenants you can step outside right but are you willing Joyce right now how are you supposed to know whether to step outside or not if you don’t know what the terms of the contract are Frank and you’re sitting there with friends and family and and you’re wondering well Betty is doing this and I pushed my mother and I trust my grandmother and they’re all kind of dressed up here so it must be me and we move forward we just we just finished a book on the difference between the biblical temple and the Mormon temple and it’s actually for sale now in Jerusalem as well now you’re going to Africa and I understand you’re going to Libya Liberia Liberia Liberia so that’s western Africa I believe rights yes we’ve had a radio program there for about eight and a half years and we’ve never met the people but we’ve just had a great relationship with him and it started out once a week and then we live and we did that for years and then it became reported programs and how we do live programs once a month but they are actually broadcasting every single day and hundreds and hundreds of black Mormons have come out of the church there in Liberia and five months ago I said praise the Lord five months ago I sent a letter of invitation to the mission president and Clark who’s out there now and told them that we’ll be out there for a week and would love to meet with him and the missionaries as we do here locally you know try to meet with the bishop or whoever and I doubt that they will be there but it will be an awesome witness to the black Mormons that their leadership won’t even the elders and I hope they do they’ll be treated fairly but we are been invited by seven different churches and it’s really going to be an awesome opportunity wonderful wonderful let me ask you this I know that you touched a lot on the the Book of Mormon doctrine oh you know but the black-skinned the darkening of a skin the curse that the Lamanites were under etc but do you ever get into the principles of dogma the doctrines that modern-day prophets have promulgated about blacks and the first sentence oh absolutely I’ve got a list of close to 90 pages of every every reference that has ever made and this is available online I won’t use the n-word on your program but I went through I’ve paid for the official LDS collectors library both the 2005 and the 2009 update and I did all my research from there and got it references there are 66 times that the church has official the n-word in describing blacks and then on top during a church service yes and and three in conference and those three and conference were jokes about black people jokes not stories but jokes where they use the n-word and and and then later on they develop Sambo darky Blackie and all that is in there all the way up until the 1970s so when and of course you know as well as anybody else and real motivation was Jimmy Carter when he kind of squeezed the IRS look into the black issue with the Mormons because there were several colleges that were boycotting any activity Mormon Church because of their their statements right right the IRS revelation IRS revelation that’s exactly what it was the week later all of a sudden God speak I remember the Salt Lake Tribune did an excellent article they the title of it was God is that you or the RRS by the way incidentally parenthetically I was married to two black sisters no kidding awesome not at the same time yeah I was just in Colorado City or or at least in Lehi no I’ve been married five times for the record okay I was proposed to twice I couldn’t say no yeah anyway it’s a long long story and I’ve co-written like four authored a book with a sister LDS sister who had been married at the time six times she had just come out of her sixth marriage and we named the book 93 things we learned from our last 11 marriages oh it’s on Amazon it’s not a kiss-and-tell book that’s more of an introspective talk about relationships and what to do what not to do in selecting your your companion okay so that’s my little plug for my book wait for the movie yeah let’s get into a little bit talking about discrimination and discrimination against Blacks in particular the church is still discriminating against those who are not members of the church when it comes to employment on my correct absolutely in fact if you’re a member of the church in good standings and have employment if you change the status of your church membership you risk in most cases especially there in a Utah Valley your your employment as well we’ve we’ve met several people and we deal with families every single week some as far as ways New Zealand and France and the little pockets if they work for a Mormon and they question the church they’ve got a challenge to make them and I’ve told many Christian churches and this is true that when we witness the true gospel of Jesus Christ to most Mormons they hear the questions and they understand the positions that were put to them about the gospel or about Joseph Smith or about the deception but but call really what they’re thinking is will I lose my job for this my family for this they have no question that the truth is there and that the church is a lie but without the process and just like we did and you know you have to stand up and be a man or a woman or a leader of your family and risk losing so much so most people are rational enough to understand the points of the lie in Mormonism but the weak thing they have to weigh is the challenges in their life that yeah so there’s three things actually there’s their employment there’s the extended family alienation that comes with that and also if they’re married there their marriage may be on the rocks if one of them decides well you know you can’t just leave the church we’ve had a temple marriage celestial sealing here if you if you leave the church I’m out of I’m out of the marriage have you heard of that oh yeah not only it’s not only could their marriage be on the rocks the church itself will throw rocks at jerk marriage I was in the same room with Kathy when I decided the best way to educate Kathy is used the leadership the Mormons work to do that and they actually the bishop actually in front of me Paul told Kathy if Lee leaves will find you a worthy priesthood hole how sweet is that Joe and I got angry and I said I said what I said I love this man I said if he leaves the church I’m not gonna divorce him and I just couldn’t believe that he would suggest that in front of me a worthy priesthood holder yeah let me let me give you an experience that I’ve had which proposed into how you can be abused by priesthood leaders okay when I was married to my first wife had been married for 14 years we had six children together I was a loyal husband you know we had our ups and downs like every couple economically we pull through every time and I had been working a regular job I had served in positions callings in the ward and then she besides you know she’s had enough of this she decides to take the children six children and move out to her mother’s which was 800 miles away from me I still had a little work I couldn’t work and I couldn’t focus I couldn’t eat I couldn’t sleep long story short you know we I had tried to bring the bishop into the picture before she left to try and get her to stay and reconsider you know he got six children here what are you worried going anyway she moved out and then I called the state president one night I won’t give you the name but he was a professor of ancient languages you know he was the paragon of civility and airy edition and you know the apotheosis of the godly christ-like man right so I said okay you got the picture so I said to him president could you please call my wife and try and insight or two back you know and let’s patch this up so he says well you know Paul she said a lot of bad things about you that’s not true you know you’re making me feel like the scum of the earth and he says to me yes Paul you are the scum of the earth No Wow without without a trial without researched with that doctor her word just awesome just going on her word and that night I had a nervous breakdown and I was hospitalized for three weeks and long story but after that I called what used to have that the original representation yep and I said this is what happened you know is this acceptable you know so I’ve been through the meat grinder and bounced back time and again I won’t get into all my life story here in one blurb let’s leave it for another time but I want to focus on you more than anything else let’s talk about the gospel topic essays you you guys left the church before the gospel topical essays came online right yes when they came out when they came out I actually used that opportunity to write the church again headquarters the church and I’ve got a copy of this letter where I point it out because I saved all the documentation and I understand now that if you go to a disciplinary court you have to sign a waiver that says you will not record it you will not discuss it and that didn’t exist when I recorded mine and and have all the I record everything is you know possible maybe I’m from working 36 years with the National Security Agency okay we have two satellites watching you right now lady the lady behind you plant plans on leaving without banner bill so I used that opportunity to take those subjects that were in the church essays I said my excommunication was based off of these exact same question because in written questions I asked the state of course I was well accepted in the stake up until that time you know it justice Smith married the wives of other men did justice Matthews don’t to translate the Book of Mormon and a priori that has been found for the Book of Abraham why are there no connection anyway I wrote all those down and got the answer back that said that is all a lie so six years later I wrote the church back and I said hey look now that the information has come out and I’ve been executed the Opera it actually vindicated I said can we have another trial could we have another Court of course it was all sarcastic and got nothing back but but all right stated that they literally were the exact same question how do you like them apples they would ask League brother Baker why are you asking these anti-mormon questions and he said I meant Mormon the young single adults were bringing us their questions and so Lee was going online and researching them on and in church history books and now just recently came out with a to cover the church history there the book called the same complaints are the same for those who are not members of the church listening to this ok we have to understand that from the get-go from the time you joined the church you’re stepping into a Truman Show in a bubble where you have the outside world and they have a Mormon you are told from the get-go that Joseph Smith had enemies or telling his story about a vision that the Saints had enemies that had to be you know they had to move from state to state I’m feeling settled in Utah in the valley and we still have dogs that are barking after a caravan you know you can’t listen to those podcasts read those books because your testimony is going to be weakened and of course you’ve got the temple recommending right you are filly a tour associate with anybody who is opposed to the church Jews right so you cannot really engage yourself in an honest intellectual discussion with your leaders correct me if I’m wrong but if you start analyzing the history of the church and you want clarification like you tried to do it the next thing you know is they’ve got a court hearing scheduled for you yeah and all you have to do is wait because praise God for the Internet and the free flow of information and I like a joke as good as anybody else now don’t get me wrong the journey that we’ve been on has been heart-wrenching and it’s torn our family apart but yep not a few years ago I got a great laugh when I was reading the church essay on polygamy plural marriage in Kirtland and Nabu Anna talks in the church essay signed by the First Presidency talked about Joseph Smith using polygamy and Flannery and and taking the wives of other men now Paul this is amazing because 11 years before then I purchased the book in sacred loneliness from Compton the church and I was told this is a lie you know it is used as a reference in the church essay the way when I saw that I actually broke out it laughter it’s just absolutely amazing is that so many years ago I was told that that book is a filthy lie and now it is being referenced by the living prophet of God the flipside you couldn’t write this stuff history book of the year the year that we yeah well you know his polyandry started in 1833 ten years before polygamy was instituted in 1843 yeah and as we know he married the nine women who are already married to aluminum and nine were teenagers as young as 14 Sam he cajoled then first and with an eternal damnation if they wouldn’t marry him one I think you described the story where he said he saw a vision or the Savior peered him with a sword and right tell us about that yeah Joseph Smith claims this was furred the Partridge sisters now he made it married a set of sisters and a set of a mother and daughter which is specifically against the laws of God in Deuteronomy and in leviticus and amazing is that as christians cannot let the mormons have any mileage on that when they say polygamy was in the Bible my advice to every Christian or every Mormon listening to this broadcast is give them that don’t argue about polygamy not at all it’s a waste of time and it’s absolutely wrong because God never authorized or commanded polygamy but the problem is is the umbrella of polygamy they try to shove under their flannery take in another man’s wife take any mother and a daughter thinking instead of sisters that specifically against the Bible and the Mormons try to put that under the umbrella of polygamy and it’s absolutely not right so you’re you’re right that joseph claims to kill joel these young ladies and they came from canada they lived in his house they work in his house and one of the greatest stories in and that is authorized by the church both in the new history and in the old history is that when Emily and her sister were married to Joseph many months later Emma had her heart open to the idea believe me and she said Joseph why don’t you take Emily and her sister and of course they were already married but there for or just for comedy purposes they do another marriage just random I’m Emma yeah well you know we can go on and on about Joseph Smith and his tactics we know that he had been convicted of bank fraud right in the Kirtland Safety Society yes and then he had to flee a fugitive to Missouri right and we know that in 1828 sometime in the summer of 1828 he attempted to join the Methodist Episcopal Church right and he was in it for only three days because the rector or the pastor the minister finally told them you know you either confess your sins in public or we have to have a disciplinary hearing here for you and he chose neither he decided to up and leave you know right and of course this is after the time the angel told him not to join any Church didn’t start your own church twelve years gap between when he saw the vision and told anybody yeah I would have known that thirty if the missionary said told me that this young guy had a vision in 1820 but he didn’t report it until 1832 and that the first journal account of this narrative is that the only saw Jesus forgave and well that that’s what’s the whole story out the window right there you know or need nine versions of a first vision you only need two two versions to make it a fraud right it just doesn’t hold water at all it doesn’t now but it did them and like I tell people praise God for the Bible because if you have a foundation and the Word of God you won’t never become Mormon those who are weak in the gospel I could today convert to Mormonism and it’s really a selectively ignorant I believe amongst the Mormons and among those who even investigate the Mormon Church yeah the other thing just very briefly here about the gospel topic as we now find out that to use the stone and hat trick to have had the book of woman dictated to them by this magical stone and the Bible specifically prohibits from us following Wizards that keep and mutter you know people into things objects crystal balls stone whatever the funny thing is that the Urim and Thummim were specifically included with the gold plates for the sole purpose of translating those gold plates as per Russell and Nelson as for other leaders of the church and they were there to allow the seer and the Revelator to translate the gold plates so if you look at an ensign edition of Russell I’m Nelson stark he was talking to mission presidents about this translation and he refers to the ermine filmin and then three paragraphs further down the same article he talks about a stone in hat-trick so which is it you know and the other thing that’s really disconcerting is it really broke my heart I’m being facetious here but it broke my heart that he did not use the stone in hat trick to translate the Book of Abraham I love your sarcasm and obviously obviously the Mormons try to build little bridges back to the scriptures because those Mormons right now that are pointing their finger at the screen says the Urim and Thummim is true it’s in the Bible you bet it is it was advice behind the breastplate of the high priest and there’s no clear evidence on what it was used for but it was used for making specific decisions but it it it’s like the Mormons reach back into the scriptures and they try to tie a ribbon around one or two things and bring it forward and say see that’s what we’re using in fact today in our Sunday School class we were talking about the difference between setting apart and and something being consecrated to the Lord and a Mormon will say look in the scriptures people and things were set apart yes well and things were consecrated absolutely to include the tabernacle the poles of the tabernacle the elements everything everything was but that doesn’t mean that you paint a painting of Jesus Christ laying his hands on the hands of the apostles and say look they’re being set up and let’s write bring that forward into the modern age the the deception of one nism quite honestly and I know deception is brilliant here there’s no way that someone could say that Joseph Smith was an idiot he was motivated by Satan he was motivated by sex and absolutely the most phenomenal religious flaw fraud on the planet there’s no comparison our plan is the net lasted long have you have you heard John demain interviewing Richard Hendricks Roger Hamlet I believe largely no job don’t remember that interview okay just condense it here Roger Hendricks is an ex mission president former state president he was a member of the board of trustees of one of the church’s corporations and when John Dillon asked him about his testimony of the gospel Joseph Smith the Book of Mormon Roger said trying to quotas were Jesus Jesus have created one of the greatest stories polluters history that’s his statement and this guy is still a member of the church Oh is he remember that’s amazing you need to listen to that it’s a nine part interview he always resisted oh go ahead and he also goes on to say that our belief in God comes from a deep need by men and women to believe in something this guy still remember that’s awesome I don’t know you know the mendacity there’s a systemic streak of manasseh t subterfuge that from way back I mean that a guy like Joseph Smith I beg to differ with you on one point here about his brilliance when you get a guy like Joseph Smith who in 1832 inscribes in his journal for the first time his first vision and also his first account of the 1823 visit by the angel Nephi right not knock or or not I’ve seen it I’ve seen the the written journal okay and he does that in 1832 that’s as you know two years after the church was formally organized right what in the heck were these early church members adhering to what were they converting to I mean it must have been simply his translation of a book a hidden book a new scripture because it could have been the first wish no they never heard of it the organizer no absolutely not so I would have liked to have known all this stuff when the missionaries taught me the gospel at the outset before I stepped into the church because this this is meant these are material facts and as you state in your in your website you say that a lot of when all of the Mormon history is true history which has been somehow packaged as anti-mormon propaganda by the church leaders right all true history it’s the fact that his family were practicing magic you know if you read his mother’s journal loosing that journal he says you know we focused in our labors of course that we never you know we never forgot our labors even though we practice a per action called it which is short for abracadabra and then we had magic circles and our soothsaying you know we still we still kind of you know had that in the background while we focused in our labors don’t don’t you know so amazing in in Joseph Smith’s own hand writing in his journal on the Joseph newspaper now he describes how he found the steer stone and of course as you know he found it when he was digging a well and he used that and other stones to do searches for very pressures and in some of those cases where he had been taken to court for fraud because he never produced any buried treasures he actually writes crazy things in his own handwriting like as their workmen were digging the spirits were pulling the the treasures deeper and deeper and deeper he told me they dig faster and faster and that’s the world that Joseph Smith lived in and and it was at that time but but his wasn’t his father also involved in spiritualism yes and what I think is amazing is that the Brigham Young saw something there and he covered up for Joseph John Taylor saw something there so he covered up for both of them and it just went on and on and on but you’re right the audacity of the Mormon people in the early years I think that was their history and not American history was absolutely phenomenal to me I would bring these kind of questions to my state prison and he said well that’s warm in history and I could say I’m sorry that’s American history own your own history like you know what the Mormons did do during the war with Mexico that’s American history the fact that there are five federal laws against the Mormon Church for polygamy is American history we can put it in a church magazine if you want but that is American history and they feel somehow reserved that they have their own history what’s what’s amazing for me is that these gospel topic essays are so selected it’s like having selective memory right you only want to include what you could possibly massage into into it an acid but it’s a misnomer because it should be called the Lord are not the truth of our history and so all the essays as if to make you think that some intellectuals Intelligencer in the church you know had a roundtable discussion and they decided to write a few essays and there you know spare time and their leisure about some you know incidental facts that may or may not have happened and who cares because you know even stephenie’s know the Hearst the church historian now write and effort his pronouncement oh what’d he say he said well we’ve got him on tape I’ve got him on tape he says that this gospel topic assays are not going to be rolled out in Sunday school you know local meeting General Conference certainly not missionary discussions they’re going to be kept under a lid in the in the website and they’re meant for to lose his words they are meant to inoculate the younger generation and we heard that yeah right so that they would not be shocked by some of these things I would have really loved to have heard about these things before I joined the church yeah and I just wanted to say John delenn I forget who we interviewed but we heard that a couple of years ago plenty of future yeah he was a CES teacher and he Church education system and he was saying that they had a meeting of all the the people who wrote the manuals for the seminary for the youth for the lesson and that the director of CEF at that time came in and told them brothers and sisters as you were writing these manuals you need to use this information and the truth of trijet a so that we can inoculate our youth with these truths so that by the time they reach age 18 we don’t leave the church because they’re so used to get it just common indoctrination that they’re hearing about me yeah you know I hate to say this but the leaders of the church the PR department the legal department they are in a bubble they’re in a universe all of their own yeah I don’t know how they can explain all this in a court of law in front of the jury or a judge because one day one day it’ll get to that point but I’ll tell you Paul there’s enough information I believe even though they’re trying to be more honest about their past lives I do believe there’s enough information in the essays preach to a Mormon just from the Book of Mormon book of abraham and the essays there’s enough there to qualify a lie and if people don’t believe it and you know in my growing up in the church the essays smoke they completely bury anything that anti true anti Mormons put together you know what the essays actually say is worse than the God maker oh absolutely they hide a lot of things in the footnotes so you want to make sure that you see these little subtle things and then you need to go to the footnote to see that Joseph took between 12 to 14 married women no we never knew that but the church is now say Tibet my church now space yeah yeah and to think that you know Stephen snow would also add that 90% of the church membership doesn’t we care about you know these issues taking a survey and that’s the only reason the essays are out there is for legal reasons okay the legal department and the in the public relations part of the church has told the leadership of the church five ten or fifteen years from now there will be a successful lawsuit against the church and you have got to put some kind of foundation to say this information is there and it is available and if you choose not to read it that’s your choice as people like you and I died off there won’t be anybody left to say I was lied to that’s right that’s right I can just picture these guys in in a big meeting you know brainstorming as to how to you know package all this information and how to indemnify themselves how did this claim any wrongdoing and what should we call these let’s call them gospel prophet no we gotta call him gospel topic essays that’s gonna sound better yeah let’s do that and I’m sure there were some elder brothers that were in there who did not want to admit anything about the blacks and did not want to admit that would a great meeting to be a fly on the wall because the younger smarter crowd that said look but we’re going to lose billions of dollars if you don’t do this and the older guys were already set with their million-dollar mansions and they’re already set with their yeah nobody can touch them nobody can touch you know that’s why it would have been awesome to see elder Packer before he died actually become what the prophet of the church because he would not have up with this elder Packer yeah boy are we talking about D Boyk a packer Boyd K Packer he was next in line and he was hardcore I thought that him and Monson had a that had a head on because Monson wanted to keep to bring everything out in the open and Tiger was the guy who wanted to keep right the wraps right right right for hims not all truth was useful that’s exactly right Allen a chokes yeah that’s part he was the chief of the old guard right so now I should point out to everyone that I did lodge a formal complaint with the Federal Trade Commission and I’m hoping that one get some response I don’t know what the inner workings the machination czar of these societies I don’t know how deeply involved the Masons are involved in the Mormon Church or with other I’d say Vatican other societies we shall wait and see you know I think that from what I’ve gathered so far the Mormon Church is a cash cow it’s a 501c3 tax-exempt corporation that’s raking in billions every year we know that and they have to keep that cash cow alive and well and afloat at all costs so when little guys like me come around you know taiking about class-action lawsuits I’ve got 40 people so far signed up and 30 want their tithe and refunded when you get not including punitive damages I can go on enough the website is lbs class-action dot Wibbly dot-com but when you get to the point we have maybe a flowers and plaintiffs looking for refunds you know things are starting to get a little bit unwieldy for the church and they may decide to do something I don’t care you know I had my near-death experience a while back 2006 over the part I’m ready whenever the Lord wants me to go out there I really you know I’m at peace I’m oh what’s that website again because will join it today LDS class action dot Whibley that spell WWE Bly dot-com okay and I believe with the work that we’ve seen in the background it’s just a matter of time before a high-powered LDS attorney finally comes out and to represent those people because it will be a former mormon attorney that puts these together we look forward to that that time you know that there’s there’s one of three ways this can go right it could going to civil lawsuits it could be also a criminal lawsuit because it’s it’s a criminal indictment you know criminal fraud if a Attorney General decides to move with it they can move it and it also goes through arbitration or an international tribunal I contacted the international tribunal of natural justice its chief counsel brother David Steele and about twice so and I’ve also apprised the United Nations about this because think about it you have all these countries that are letting the missionaries in they are using people to join this corporation which then extracts from them ten percent of their gross income which could have gone to other purposes in that nation right there so I think it’s imagine it’s a man International Economics rule of law will there is no corporation in the world that should be immune from the rule of law yep I do not see it as a church anymore I see it strictly as a corporation that’s all it is and actually that’s what it calls it so is freaking of the First Presidency that’s who built that mall in in downtown Salt Mine how much did that cost it was five billion billion dollars yeah 5.8 billion that’s cheap Africa yeah we won’t see him to me oh my gosh so we covered the gospel topic essays oh one last thing about him is that in 1838 it was that the church officially officially wrote in its archives the official version of the first vision Jesus Christ it did not publish it until 1842 so also it did not use the word Moroni until what six years after six years afterwards in the church plays all kinds of games with when things were said when things were published when things were released one of the best examples documented clearly in church history that you can get in at the end any LDS bookstore if you buy the original 1835 version of the doctrine of covenants section 101 verse 4 section 101 verse 4 talks about marriage and because the church had gone through so many lawsuits at that time section 101 verse 4 says in as much as this church has been reproached with the crime of fornication and polygamy we declare that one man should have but one woman how that was printed in 1830 five but it was not published in the Doctrine and Covenants until 1876 job Brigham Young died in 1877 so that means during the entire height of polygamy the official doctrine Doctrine and Covenants section 101 verse 4 says we don’t practice polygamy there are over 350 families that were told that in England that came to Utah based off of that lie told by John Taylor school he said that had eight wives so when these families from England get over here to the desert of Utah they go oh yeah I guess we do practice polygamy and I see you got seven daughters how nice my god but but but to add to that then they also irrespective of their manifesto of 1890 then they also continue practicing polygamy until 1904 until they had a new manifesto or something like that yes and and the beautiful thing about that Paul is it is dead accurate in the manifesto essay so if people go online and take a look at the manifesto as a manifesto essay it describes perfectly the fact that the 9 1890 version of the essay meant nothing to anyone they mean they they even say that polygamy continued until 1904 when this essay was issued and they used a crazy word they say it was a watershed information for members in the church where they were formally told not to practice formally told but one that was canonized in in their scriptures now is the fake one the 890 so hello Mormons hello do you get that the one you carry to church 1890 version of the real manifesto is worthless but it’s the only one canonized a clue sorry I’d like to apologize but I’d like to I love I love the spontaneity I love it I’ve lost my family over these lies it is it is it it brings me amazing pain and let’s not forget let’s not forget that one of the aspects of the church’s history it should definitely have been included in the gospel topic essays is the fact that Joe and a few other church leaders started a Masonic Lodge yes another yes and what is the Masonic rites entail well if you’re going to be a 33rd degree Mason from what I understand the ritual is somebody’s going to raise you from a casket to imitate the resurrection and this person who raises you is Lucifer well we have our we have a relative who was a good man and he’s a active high-level member of the Masonic Lodge and he has told us and I’ve also seen this in the history of Freemasonry that about 1/2 of the mob that did killed Joseph Smith so I have no doubt and I raised my hand and say he was murdered absolutely he was murdered he was not Mardon but he was murdered but up to 1/2 of the mob that night that killed him in June of 1844 was from the Masonic Lodge because he had been sharing their secrets with other men and more especially women and the Masonic leaders today still recognize they’re not proud of it but the fact is that they recognize that one half of the mob was Masonic Lodge members shut him down now how is that portrayed in the church because he had also replicated some of the rites and rituals rites yes the handshakes the handshakes the the clothing what do you know about him carrying the Jupiter talisman I I know and I have seen it but I that was quite a common piece that he had it’s it’s it’s about that big and it was bronze and it had special symbols on it and it was part of both magic but I’ve never delved into because it would never surfaced into Mormonism had it and he believed in it but there were several things that Joseph Smith did and Hyrum did that did not carry forward into Mormons on a good example is the position that Hyrum held in the church was the associate prophet and you notice that when Brigham Young takes over the associate prophet never shows up again so entirely through the church there was the prophet of the church and the associate prophet of the church in other words the second because Joseph Smith wrote in his diary and Emma believed that just like in the Book of Mormon Nephi I need I need I Alma Alma Alma Joseph Joseph Joseph the priesthood leadership of the church was supposed to go to his son Joseph the third actually split the church well I in my humble opinion I think the church has as much priesthood as McDonald’s because Starbucks where were you at yeah because in the book of Commandments correct me if I’m wrong here which was published in 1833 the book of Commandments makes no mention of any dates of the priesthood restoration or or the first vision with God the Father in Jesus Christ this is this is like the present to the doctrine of covenants it was transcribed into the document covenants later but the book of Commandments was the go-to book to learn about the church’s history basically right no mention of the first vision no mention of a priesthood respiration so I broke a Debora all of a sudden the different covenants we have a priesthood restoration all right how when you add it all up when you add it all up Dragonstone trick Book of Abraham fraud preparer were not Egyptian papyri that were the invention of the temple ceremonies is key the fact that that came out of whole cloth nothing there’s no zero connection yeah I’ll put money on the line for this there’s no connection between the biblical temple and the Mormon temple let alone that you know you have a guy who professes to be a prophet seer and Revelator of the Lord Jesus Christ starting in the sonic large and the Masonic Lodge just by chance Cathy reached over we we have a new book out the comparison between the biblical temple in the Mormon temple there you go yeah and and I’m tellin ya this is this is an awesome resource because it goes through the biblical temple tabernacle and comparison a deism duffel so if you want to know what happens in the Mormon temple this is the book every every ceremony every write every prayer is currently it’s it’s so the information and where did that come from Mormon sources ladies and gentlemen yes and the cherry on the top is that Joseph Smith anointed himself king of the earth and this generation right that’s a Council of 50 proclaimed him back in 1842 and he ran for president in 1844 but yes he was ordained as the king of the kingdom not just the prophet so what I mean for those non Mormons yeah and like you say Paul the cherry on the top well the cherry on the top really is it named Moroni the cherry on the type was it was Nephi and the better Terry on the top of his head is that while Joseph was doing all this he’s running for president of the United States of America now coincidentally did he not an unheard hearing rumors here that he tried to enlist the Indians the Indian nations in a resurrection against in a insurrection a revelation against the federal government to to create Zion is that I know Brigham Young that with the youth but in the early 1800s the only skirmish I think that Abraham Lincoln with him was would have been during that same time frame and I don’t know I can tell you I don’t know of any connection that it’s immaterial it’s okay but I’m a johnny-come-lately like I said I didn’t know any of this at all you know neither did I and I’m embarrassed to say that I didn’t know that Paul let me tell you a little secret before our battery dies at 36 years with the National Security Agency I worked at White Sands at the White House at Los Alamos JPL all kinds of and and very intelligent man I used to work with and no kidding after I left Mormonism I got letters and phone calls from professors and from scientists who said Lee we’ve known you for years we never really thought you were gonna be a Mormon and I said that’s because you knew more about Mormonism then I did and and so just the fact you’re not a johnny-come-lately it’s just that I didn’t know what you don’t know what you don’t know you don’t know what you don’t know no exactly and praise God you know there’s a time and a season for every one of us and and I think we are doing his work as we march forward in whatever way we can you know I look forward to the second coming this is my my prayer that things may haste them and that the Lord might come back soon I look at the situation in the Middle East things are shaping up I don’t know how much longer maybe 20 years within 20 years within fan I have no idea but may the Lord come back and I’m reminded of one scripture in particular lately you know in Genesis where the Lord tells Satan you may be able to bruise the posterity of this woman in English he’ll bruises heal but right if you land he will crush your skull you know the Lord their precious goal and I think we’re coming to that juncture where the Lord is going to start demanding judgment you know and nothing that is hidden will not be kept from from being revealed it would be it will be manifested and brought to the surface to light yes as you go forward with your four-foot diameter searchlight and I go forward with my little pin flashlight I hope I hope we can do some good here we hope to meet you someday yeah I love you I love to meet you and I just have to encourage people I want to praise God that you and us that we have we’ve come out of Mormonism we’d lost our testimony of Joseph Smith but we’ve kept our testimony in Jesus Christ alone and it’s so important that people don’t give up on Jesus because so many people leave Mormonism and they say if I could be fooled by Mormonism who’s to say that this wasn’t made up and it’s true it’s real and Lee and I have been to Israel and we have been to the places where Jesus has walked and we have looked at the archaeological evidence and if you want to tell you guys that it’s real and the Bible press the Bible and we want you what is your sense gap if you a sense that there’s a there’s an imminent set of events that are going are going to unfold in the near future that are going to give us the on-ramp the Middle East is certainly key to that yeah yeah things that our prophets prophesied in Scripture and in Revelation there’s a lot you know that’s got to happen definitely know what I did nothing Oh what can I say here we are I hope we can meet again in person also and I want to thank you both for having been here with me it’s my first time doing this so it’s kind of winged it and first time something we’re learning and also if I could just tell our website if people want to go there for more information it’s it’s Lee Baker dot the number for Mormon dot org so that’s okay le e bak ER at for mormon org and we also have old radio broadcast on there and lots of articles and information wonderful we hope to bring more people out of women is an edge of Christianity that’s that’s that’s it that’s it so god bless you both in your travels to Africa may you have a lot of success there may you always have this feeling that you know you you’re um you’re on the right track and go the grass and foliage yeah a lot of people make you feel is you know they lead Mormonism and they feel kind of lost their whether I do know what do I hang on to and if people feel the the desire to help donate for the African trip there’s a link there for donations because we’re doing this one on our diet yeah and that we appreciate the support yeah absolutely so folks thank you for for joining us and I hope we can do this again with Kathy and Lee Baker and God bless and all the best wishes to both of you thank you